Dog Training Today with Will Bangura for Pet Parents, Kids & Family, Pets and Animals, and Dog Training Professionals. This is a Education & How To Dog Training Podcast.
#160 The Biggest Lie in Dog Training: Dog Training Today will Will Bangura, M.S., CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, FFCP
Ever wondered if positive reinforcement can truly transform your high-prey drive dog? Join us as we challenge the age-old myth that positive training methods fall short in tough situations. Pet behavior experts Will Bangura and Jordan Marsteller open up about their journey from compulsion-based training to embracing science-backed positive reinforcement techniques. Discover how even the most challenging dogs can thrive without aversives, backed by success stories from the Fetchmasters School of Dog Training and the Positive Gun Dog Trainer Certification Program.
The recent 4th of July festivities left many pet owners grappling with stressed, anxious dogs. In this episode, we explore practical strategies to help your furry friends cope with loud noises and other common stressors. Will shares personal anecdotes about conditioning his own dogs to handle fireworks with ease, while Jordan emphasizes the critical role of consistent training and access to free resources. We also touch on the alarming rise in shelter intakes post-holiday and why community support is more crucial than ever.
Struggling with a dog that jumps on guests? We've got you covered. Learn how to teach your dog to greet visitors calmly using positive reinforcement techniques. From the effective "place" command to desensitizing triggers, we provide a step-by-step guide to eliminate this frustrating behavior. Plus, we preview an upcoming discussion on the ethical considerations of using CBD in dog training and tackle the issue of door bolting. Tune in for expert advice and compassionate solutions for a well-behaved, happy dog.
If you need professional help please visit my Dog Behaviorist website.
Go here for Free Dog Training Articles
Ever wondered if positive reinforcement can truly transform your high-prey drive dog? Join us as we challenge the age-old myth that positive training methods fall short in tough situations. Pet behavior experts Will Bangura and Jordan Marsteller open up about their journey from compulsion-based training to embracing science-backed positive reinforcement techniques. Discover how even the most challenging dogs can thrive without aversives, backed by success stories from the Fetchmasters School of Dog Training and the Positive Gun Dog Trainer Certification Program.
The recent 4th of July festivities left many pet owners grappling with stressed, anxious dogs. In this episode, we explore practical strategies to help your furry friends cope with loud noises and other common stressors. Will shares personal anecdotes about conditioning his own dogs to handle fireworks with ease, while Jordan emphasizes the critical role of consistent training and access to free resources. We also touch on the alarming rise in shelter intakes post-holiday and why community support is more crucial than ever.
Struggling with a dog that jumps on guests? We've got you covered. Learn how to teach your dog to greet visitors calmly using positive reinforcement techniques. From the effective "place" command to desensitizing triggers, we provide a step-by-step guide to eliminate this frustrating behavior. Plus, we preview an upcoming discussion on the ethical considerations of using CBD in dog training and tackle the issue of door bolting. Tune in for expert advice and compassionate solutions for a well-behaved, happy dog.
If you need professional help please visit my Dog Behaviorist website.
Go here for Free Dog Training Articles
Thanks for watching. Raised by wolves with canine DNA in his blood. Having trained more than 24,000 vets Helping you and your fur babies thrive, live in studio with will bangura answering your pet behavior and training questions. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome your host and favorite pet behavior expert, will bangura. Would you like to?
Speaker 2:go on. Okay, that's already put in.
Speaker 3:Good Saturday morning dog lovers. I'm Will Bangura and I'm Jordan Marsteller, and you're watching another episode of Dog Training Today here on Facebook Live. Just a little bit about myself if you're brand new. I am a clinical animal behaviorist as well as a certified canine behavior consultant, a certified professional dog trainer. I'm also fear-free, certified, and on Dog Training Today we talk about everything dog training, everything, dog behavior.
Speaker 3:And this is an opportunity. If you have a question about your dog's training, if you've got a question about your dog's behavior, we're here to help you and to give you some expert answers, expert solutions to what you can do, what you can try to have a better relationship and a better behaved dog. And so if you've got a question about your dog's training or behavior, do us a favor, go ahead and just type that question down into the comments there and Jordan will be taking a look at those questions. And if you do have questions, we will be doing our best to answer those for you. Hey, how was everybody's 4th of July? Did everybody have a good 4th? Hopefully it was safe. How did your pets do with the?
Speaker 2:fire. Yeah, you know, and you know what I'm. You know what my question is. Will about the fourth of july what's how many? Digits were lost.
Speaker 3:This oh yeah, you know, it always happens, somebody blows their hand absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And you know what my, my thoughts and prayers go out to those of you that are less than 10 this morning.
Speaker 3:Less than 10 digits.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they do go out to you, but I want to know those statistics. I really do, I really do. The Arizona Humane Society already released this year's numbers about an increase for the 4th of July intakes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know it's always a big well. It's the busiest day for any shelters for rescue organizations. It's an absolute mess. Yeah, absolutely Rescue organizations.
Speaker 2:It's an absolute mess. So they said that it's too soon to tell for this year, but they should know in the next couple of days. But they're expecting at least a 60% increase, which is about on par with previous years. That's crazy, 60% increase for one day of the year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's absolutely crazy 60% increase for one day of the year. Yeah, that's absolutely crazy. So today, stay with us, because a little bit later in the show we're going to be talking about the biggest lie in dog training. Okay, the biggest lie in dog training. So don't go anywhere. But first do us a favor Hit that like button, hit that share button. Please give us some love by doing that. More people get to benefit from what we're doing here at Dog Training. Today, if you're watching this on YouTube, do us a favor, hit the like button as well. Please make sure that you subscribe and click on that. Uh, little bell, is it the bell on youtube?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah on youtube it's a little bell and that lets people know when we go ahead and post um a new video. And if you are listening to the dog training today podcast, maybe you listen on apple podcast, maybe you listen on spotify. Do us a favor, just just hit pause. Hit pause and give us a five-star review. If you love what we do, please give us a five-star review. That helps our rankings, um, it helps us go up go listen, guys.
Speaker 2:if, to be frank, if you have gotten anything out of watching our videos or listening to our podcast and you believe that somebody else needs to hear this information, like and share the page. It is the only way that we get out there. It's the only way that more people get this free training. We love to do this. We really, really do, and we're doing it because we want to help people. We can only help people if you help us do that, so please take some time to do that for us. You know what's insane, though Will talking about 4th of July.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what's that?
Speaker 2:So I spent 4th of July. Me and my fiance went over to Will's house for the 4th of July.
Speaker 1:It was a fantastic time.
Speaker 2:We had some burgers and steaks and great food, and Hana made those brownies that were to die for. But what was crazy was when the first fireworks went off. So we're just sitting there, we're just sitting at the table. I think that maybe we had just finished eating our steaks. Yeah, we had just finished eating our steaks and the fireworks started going off. And both of your dogs, boo and Papa Sully, they just came running just out of nowhere, ran right up to Will. Guys, it was insane. I wasn't even registering what was happening, but I noticed it. And Will goes, he goes. What are you guys? Why are you guys coming up to me?
Speaker 2:And then it clicked and then it clicked. That it's because he's been doing the conditioning that we've been teaching you guys. It's because he's been doing the conditioning that we've been teaching you guys. Let me tell you it's 100% in action. I witnessed it. Obviously, I've seen other dogs do this before, but I'm telling you guys, it works. Every single time that those fireworks went off, instead of these dogs who in the past, would be scared and they would get startled and maybe they'd go hide or they'd tremble uncontrollably, instead they heard the boom from the fireworks and they were like, oh, let me get to dad, or let me get to mom, or let me get to this person, let me find someone that's gonna give me treats, yeah, and so you know, the funny thing was I forgot they came running up to me and like what are you guys doing?
Speaker 3:You know, forgot that the previous two years, every time there was a sound of fireworks I would mark and reward my dogs. And so now they've got a secondary reward marker and that's the sound of fireworks. Fireworks, because that means good things are going to happen. And, just like you said, jordan, um, my dogs really had it pretty severe, I mean trembling, hiding, running, trying to get away. Um, it wasn't good. And so I had to do the work. I had to do the counter conditioning, um, I had to do the desensitization. And yeah, it was funny because he came running up to me and I'm like well, what are you guys jumping on me for? What is it that you need? What is it that you want? And it was Hana.
Speaker 2:It was Hana, she remembered.
Speaker 3:She goes you got to give them a reward and I forgot. I'm like, oh yeah, that's right, we did counter conditioning and desensitization.
Speaker 1:So it does it works.
Speaker 3:Anybody that says it doesn't work, it works. So here's the deal. If you have a dog that struggles with fireworks, chances are the next time it's going to happen is new year's. Okay, you've got a lot of time right now, between now and new years, to be able to do behavior modification, to do counter conditioning, desensitization to fireworks. Okay, um, between now and then.
Speaker 2:So, let me tell you guys, six months.
Speaker 3:Six months until new years, and six months is the average time that we would spend with our clients fixing very severe problems yeah, it would have to be very severe for six months, because if here's the thing with my dogs and the um, um, well, here's exactly the process I went through for two years was a medicate my dogs because they're scared. They don't need to suffer, okay. So that took the edge off. That allowed me, during the fireworks, to be able to do the work. You know, if your dog is so scared that they're constantly running away, trembling, hiding, you can't do the work. First of all, they're over threshold. They're over threshold. But what I want everybody to do, if you've got a dog that's afraid of fireworks, okay, you've got six months to get ready for New Year's. You've got a year to get ready for the next 4th of July. Go to my website at dogbehavioristcom, other side. Yep, there we go.
Speaker 2:Really, Because on my screen on my screen.
Speaker 3:It's over there.
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm going to use that mirroring feature but, go to dogbehavioristcom Apparently it's over there and and go to the menu. Click on articles. The menu, click on articles. There's about 94 articles up there. Find the one on 4th of July fireworks, but also scroll down, get the big guide on counter conditioning and desensitization. Start working on that now. I guarantee, if you follow those guidelines, it's going to be a game changer, an absolute game changer for you. Yeah, absolutely so. One of the things that I wanted to do today, as I mentioned and as I wrote in kind of the description for today's podcast, I wanted to talk about the biggest lie in dog training. Okay, ah.
Speaker 2:And the biggest lie is that anybody's better than us, right.
Speaker 3:Hey, there's, I'm going to look.
Speaker 1:There's plenty of trainers that are better than us there are. There, absolutely are, I guarantee it there, absolutely are. There are, I guarantee it there absolutely are.
Speaker 3:There are, but here's. You want to talk about a lie, here you go. Listen to this.
Speaker 5:There is a radical lie going around the internet on dog training. I am saying the use of aversives, the use of corrections, the use of information in training a dog is necessary. Anyone who tells you anything else is lying to you. Science has no place in dog training whoa, what was that?
Speaker 3:science has no place in dog training. What?
Speaker 2:yeah, science has made me the dog trainer and behavior specialist that I am today. So without, without science, I don't know where I'd be today.
Speaker 3:So what teaching? There's nothing behind teaching and educating and how animals think they learn, they process information as far as science. But here's the lie, and that's from Robert Cabral, and Robert was doing a workshop at a shelter. Okay, and he's talking about. You have to use corrections. Let's just listen to a little bit of this and then we'll talk about it, okay.
Speaker 5:All right, all right.
Speaker 5:So in understanding the makeup of the dog, which is the real, the predator, the wolf, we have to look at why dogs do certain things and why they don't. So if we look at the aspect of positive training or a reward-based system, as I said, as long as the dog's desire for the object, the positive object, the reward object, is greater than its natural predatorial instinct to chase, kill and eat, the dog will opt for your reward. So if you put the dog on a sit and you tell the dog come and you have a treat, the dog's desire for that treat will outweigh his natural instinct to be lazy and not come. So he'll come and he'll get the treat. Now if you tell the dog to stay and when he stays he gets the treat He'll stay because he wants that treat. But if a chicken or a rabbit runs by and that triggers his natural predatory instinct to sight, scent, hunt, kill and eat that rabbit, that will outweigh his desire to get the little treat from your hand. And that's where, oftentimes, positive training will fall apart.
Speaker 3:All right, I'm just going to go ahead and pause that right there. Yeah, okay. This is the biggest lie in dog training that positive reinforcement doesn't work and they love to use the example of hey, your dog is an animal, yeah, and it's got prey drive, yeah, and when, like you said, if a rabbit or something like that, the squirrel comes by, your dog's not going to care about your little treat.
Speaker 2:And I have two things to say about that, will. Firstly, I want to say for those of you watching or listening at home right now that maybe have not been following us for years, that this is your first time really learning about us, or maybe you've only been around for the last couple of weeks. Will and I are ex-compulsion-based trainers Exactly we both are. We used to hate on purely positive-based training we genuinely did. If you watched our old episodes on this podcast, then you know that that is true. However, science, education and learning and experience experience doing it has shown us that we were wrong and I'm willing to admit to that. We were wrong.
Speaker 3:And one of the most important things is continuing education Absolutely. And so it's one thing. It's one thing if there are positive, only force free trainers that have never used negative reinforcement, never used punishment, never used an aversive, and for them to be saying, hey, you don't need that, that you can get the results you're looking for just using positive reinforcement training. They're like, yeah, you don't know what you're talking about, but that's not the case here. It's not the case here because there's no way. There's no way. We've been there, we've done it and we have client after client after client that we have not had to use negative reinforcement. We have not had to use punishment Now.
Speaker 3:I want to show everybody something. Okay, so here is Fetchmasters School of Dog Training, okay, and Fetchmasters, okay, is a training program, all right, and they've got let's go down, let's go down. Where is it? I missed it? Right here, um, right here, positive gun dog trainer certification program. Positive gun dog, yeah, so. So let me ask you a question, all right.
Speaker 3:So, robert there, yeah, he's saying that, listen, if prey goes by, yeah, you're, you're going to lose your dog, you, you, you have to use corrections because any other animal that's going to run by, any distraction that's out there, especially if it's, you know, a squirrel, a rabbit, how about birds? Okay, yeah, that you're going to lose control of your dog, that you have to use corrections. That positive reinforcement training, force-free training, can't get the job done. Well, how in the world, how in the world, is it that they're able to do that? And these dogs are off leash? Yeah, Okay, they're off leash and they're around all kinds of other animals, there's all kinds of distractions that, um, that are out there. But I want to show another one here. Here we go Positive gun dogs. Now, this is a private group, right here on Facebook.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:There's 2,700 members of the positive gun dog group. So to say that you have to use aversives, you have to use corrections, because the big distractions around prey positive reinforcement fails? No, it doesn't. Yeah, it's happening all the time.
Speaker 2:All the time. See what it's about Will. Here's the thing, and we used to say it all the time that positive reinforcement will get you there. Aversives get you there just a little bit quicker. And the thing is, when you have a positively trained dog that is being distracted by a bird, a lizard, another animal, any distraction, it's not because your training was wrong, it's because you haven't done enough or proper training. Yet. You know Robert Cabral.
Speaker 2:In that video he goes on to say that a positive reinforcer trainer is going to have their dog sitting there and they get up and they walk away and I'm just going to ignore that behavior and then my dog comes back and sits down and then I give my dog a treat. Firstly, that's not the way that I train. I'm pretty certain that's not the way that you train Will. That's not the way that the majority of good positive trainers train. Because what happens is, mr Cabral and for anybody that thinks that positive reinforcement just doesn't work is I do use the other quadrants of operant conditioning even when I'm not using an aversive.
Speaker 2:When I'm training my dog, I put them onto a constant reward schedule and for those of you at home that don't know what that means. It means every single time that my dog does the right behavior, it gets rewarded. It is constant. It is every single time, without fail. Now my dog I told my dog sit stay. I give my dog a treat. A bunny runs by, my dog gets up and goes after the bunny. Then my dog comes back and sits down. What Mr Cabral is saying is that I'm now going to give my dog a treat because they sat back down. Wrong, I'm not going to, because that's not the task that my dog failed. My dog did not fail at sitting, he already sat. He failed at staying under distraction.
Speaker 3:That's what he failed at. I'm going to say this I'm going to say the dog didn't fail at all. I'm gonna say that the trainer failed the dog, that the trainer set the dog up for failure, okay, and and here's, here's the bottom line okay, I have no doubt, if you've got a dog with high prey drive, yeah, and you're brand you just start training your dog and you've not done any distraction training and now all of a sudden, you're asking your dog to sit and stay and a rabbit goes by, you're going to lose control of your dog.
Speaker 2:I get it.
Speaker 3:I get it here's. Counter conditioning and desensitization is not just for changing a dog's underlying emotional state, for fears, anxiety, phobias, aggression and reactivity. Yes, that is primarily what we use counter conditioning and desensitization for. But when it comes to distractions, when it comes to things like if you've got a dog that wants to chase later on in the video I'm not going to play it, but Robert will talk about dogs that you'll be walking and here comes a kid on a bike, here comes a kid on a scooter and the dog wants to chase after them Well, that's prey drive too. Chase after them? Well, that's prey drive too. But the bottom line is, if I'm new to training my dog, I don't, and I want my dog to sit and stay and focus on me. When a rabbit goes by or when a kid goes by on a bike or a scooter, I don't start the process by putting my dog in that situation where, hey, that scooter or that bike is, you know, five feet from us. It's just zipping right next to us, or we're right next to a rabbit or a squirrel or something like that, all right. So then how do you do it? First of all, just like we talk about, with using counter conditioning and desensitization for anxiety, fears, phobias, aggression, reactivity. You have to start at a distance where you have control of your dog. You start at a distance and you're proactively creating training situations. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to have my dog and I'm going to be going through whatever exercises, training exercises I want to do. I'm going to have a kid on a bike. They're going to be at a distance from my dog, where my dog can see the bike. But my dog is not losing its focus. It is still responding to the cues and commands I'm giving. My dog can stay focused with me. It's not wanting to chase after the bike. And I've got this kid going back and forth on the bike at a distance, slowly, and then eventually I start speeding up that bike, making it faster and faster and little by little, gradually, systematically, as I continue to train, day in and day out, I'm going to have that kid on a bike get closer and closer and closer and closer and closer. At any point I lose control of my dog.
Speaker 3:That does not mean my dog failed number one. It does not mean that force-free, positive, reinforcement-only training fails. It means that I'm failing the dog. I am working too fast, too soon. You don't go from zero to 100. You don't go from A to Z. There is a sequence and steps that you have to take. So here's the bottom line.
Speaker 3:When it comes to those trainers, again, it's the biggest lie in dog training that you have to. You have to use aversives. All right, listen, either they're lying or they and this is not an. Or it's an and or they don't have the skills you know Robert talks about. Hey, I love positive reinforcement. Well, he's a very heavy compulsion trainer. All right, and the bottom line is this is that you do not need to. When you do things the right way, if you understand, if you've got a high level of skill as a trainer, you can do this with force-free methods, with positive reinforcement. But you have to be a much more skilled trainer and you have to be better educated.
Speaker 3:All right, we had to go through the learning process. Yeah, all right, we went through the conversion process. You know, it happened for me almost by mistake, because in mentoring you, I had mentioned hey, listen, the way that the dog training industry is going, I do believe, down the road, you are going to have to be certified, and because the certification council for professional dog trainers is really the only legitimate certifying body for dog trainers and the only independent certifying body. We went that direction and I'm the kind of person if I'm going to make you study and take a certification exam, I'm going to do it too. I'm not going to ask you to do something that I did. So I went through that process too.
Speaker 3:Well, part of the process of getting certified is there are ethical guidelines that you have to follow, there are ways of training you have to follow, and they're all about evidence-based, science-based training and force-free training, not using aversives. And so you sign an ethics statement saying, hey, I'm not going to use punishment, I'm not going to use a prong collar, I'm not going to use an electronic collar. And throughout that process of certification, we're learning more about positive reinforcement and evidence-based, science-based training, force-free training, training and how that is applied, not just to teaching a dog to sit, to lay down, to come when called. But how do you deal with big distractions? How do you deal with a dog that's aggressive? How do you deal with a dog that is reactive? All right, but the biggest lie out there, the biggest lie out there, is that you absolutely have to use aversives.
Speaker 3:Now here's another thing I want to share Positive herding. Ok, positive herding to to advanced dog training. So advanced dog training for herding, again, dogs off leash around all kinds of distractions around other animals. Yet they're doing it all day long.
Speaker 2:And let me tell you, herding dogs are, in my opinion, in my in my opinion you may you may have a different opinion herding dogs, cattle dogs, just dogs used for herding animals, are some of the best trained dogs I have ever seen in my life, by far. By like I mean, they are insane, I I, when I look at these, these good, well-trained herding dogs, these border border collies, these Australian shepherds that can herd a like three dogs, herd a flock of, or whatever the word is of, a thousand sheep, and they do it perfectly. And to think that those dogs were trained with positive reinforcement only, that hurts me, that hurts me as a previous compulsory trainer you know?
Speaker 3:do you know where there's a lot of dogs being used for herding? It's in europe. The countryside, absolutely. And almost all countries in the european union. Shock collars and prong collars have been outlawed, gone, they're banned. Yeah, they have to use force-free training. So how is it? If they don't have those tools, how are they getting the results? So it must work. We know it works. But those folks that say, hey, there's no way you got to use um aversives, yeah, um. No, you don't now. No, let's go ahead and continue to share. And here we go, let's get another one, because it's time to put this to rest. All right, canine schutzen training a manual for IPO, training through positive reinforcement Absolutely.
Speaker 2:What Training. I would never imagine a Schutzen dog to be positively reinforced, yeah they call it IPO now.
Speaker 3:But here's the thing Everybody says, oh no, protection, sports man, you've got to use corrections, you've got to use. You got to use corrections, you got to use aversives. You know there are trainers that are titling dogs in IPO Mondo ring, french ring using nothing but positive reinforcement. So again, the biggest lie In dog training, saying that, hey, you've got to use aversives when you don't have to use aversives. Let's just keep going here as I'm going through this. Ok, let's take this to another step. Here we go, training police dogs and military dogs using positive methods. Using positive methods. These police officers.
Speaker 3:These police officers are proof that reward based training is good for more than just basic obedience and fun tricks. So the Seattle Police Department, seattle's canine unit they train with positive reinforcement. So again, another example. And we can just continue to go on and on and on. It doesn't end. Let's go to one more. All right, and where is it? Where are you? Here we go, here's the next one. Work with a skilled positive reinforcement service dog trainer. This company does service dog training, positive reinforcement. Now I want everybody to think about this. I want everybody to think about this. I'm thinking, and I'm not talking about the fake service dogs, I'm talking about the real service dogs, talking about the real service dog.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that grinds my gears. We can talk about that at different times there are.
Speaker 3:But here's the thing Most people don't train their own service dogs. Right, most people they get a grant, they get money, they do a GoFundMe account, something like that, because it costs a lot of money, especially if you have a very complex set of tasks that the service dog needs to do, like, um, for people that are blind. I mean that's a really tough um. There's a lot of training that goes in there. Yeah, I don't know of any schools throughout this country and even in the united states that train service dogs that use aversives. Yeah, all of them train with positive reinforcement. How is it that service dogs can go everywhere? And I'm again, I'm talking about real service dogs, because there's a lot of fake ones out and you know the fake ones because they're not well behaved.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no real service dog goes into public and they're not well and on, on a, on some random person pulling yeah to play with another dog no, no service dog. That that's a fake service dog. Yeah, all right people, just they don't want to pay and they want to take their dog in the restaurant. They don't want to pay to have their dog, they want to be able to fly with their dog.
Speaker 2:yeah, I love when I fly with harley and after the flight the flight attendants come up to me and they go you have the most behaved service dog we have ever seen and every time, without fail, I look at them and I say that's because she's a real service dog.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you know, bottom line herding dogs, police canine dogs, dogs that are doing protection, sports service dog, gun dogs, hunting dogs, ok, all of those, all of those dogs being trained to a high level of training, off leash, reliable, with insane distractions around them. They don't have to use a shock collar, they don't have to use a prong collar, they're getting the results. So anybody that says you know what Robert says, let's see what does he say?
Speaker 5:I am saying the use of a versus the use of corrections. The use of information in training a dog is necessary. Anyone who tells you anything else is lying to you.
Speaker 3:That's the lie. What he's saying is the lie. That is the biggest lie in dog training, absolutely. Now I want you also to understand that there are trainers, people, lay people that love to compete with their dogs in dog shows. And I'm not talking about the beauty pageant okay, where they're just prancing around the ring and best in show. I'm talking about working dog trials. I'm talking about akc obedience matches, whether it be in obedience, whether, um, we're talking utility okay, whether we're talking scent work all right, all. But today, anybody that competes with their dogs and akc obedience matches where they're putting titles on their dogs. There's lots of distractions. I mean really advanced levels of training. They're using positive reinforcement, they're not using aversives. How can they get their dogs trained to that level, title their dogs around and and have them reliable around all those distractions and not use aversives?
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially if aversives are necessary.
Speaker 3:Hey, susan Garrett. Susan Garrett, okay, one of the best agility trainers in the world. Matter of fact, she's a world champion in agility.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:She trains all of her dogs force-free, total positive reinforcement. Now, one of the arguments, one of the arguments that you know, ivan Belobanov always gives this argument. He goes it's natural Corrections are natural our biology that we're pre-programmed to want to move away from things that are painful and move towards things that are pleasurable. And he uses the example hey, you touch a hot stove, you quickly recoil from that and hopefully you probably will learn from that. It hurts, you probably won't do that again. And so he uses that example. As you know, the fact that it's part of our biology, and because it's part of our biology that we have to train that way. The other argument, too, that they give they love to give this one is that when you take a look at dogs, they correct each other. They correct each other with their mouth, right. And mom dog does that too.
Speaker 3:All right, here's the thing. Here's the thing. We have human intelligence. We have human intelligence. We're a lot smarter than dogs.
Speaker 3:All right, we don't have to use aversives, we don't have to use punishment like a dog, because we have the ability to use our brain and just like, just like, for example, you know, I could take a rock and I could start banging nails with a rock and try to build things, or I could use my brain and I could forge some new tools. Right, it's like you know. For example, I could choose to walk or run from here to New York, or I could get in a car, or I could get in a plane or something. So there's more efficient, more effective ways. Ok, less painful ways, yeah. So no, animal likes pain. No, that doesn't mean that it's some and it is part of our nature. But that doesn't mean that as a result of that, that's proof positive. Oh, you've got to train this way because somehow that's the way the universe is designed. All right, they'll say you know? Hey, roses have thorns.
Speaker 3:And do you know what propaganda is? Absolutely. Let me give you the best definition of propaganda. Propaganda is telling a story, telling something that has some truth to it, and then you attach a falsehood to that truth. That's how propaganda works, yeah. And so when Robert or other trainers say, yeah, positive reinforcement is great, you know, it builds the relationship with your dog, it's wonderful, you can begin to teach the dog certain behaviors with that, but then when you start getting into distracting environments, it's going to fall short. You've got to use aversives. Well, that's propaganda. Yeah, there's a part of it that's true, and then there's the rest of it that's a lie when it comes to this particular issue, and so this is the biggest lie in dog training. Yeah, okay, absolutely. Um, I've got some email questions that we can go through yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3:I think, we've kind of exhausted that, but before we do that, we need to take a second to hear from our sponsor. Please support our sponsors. Check out calm dogs. Oops, almost, let's try that again. Where am I?
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Speaker 3:You can get Calm Dogs at doganxietycom. It comes with a 60-day money-back guarantee. Bottom line Calm Dogs works for your dog or it's free. And it's not just about dog anxiety. Again, it's for dogs that have aggression, reactivity, fears, phobias, all of that. Let me go to some email questions here. This one is from Tina, and Tina is in Florence, kentucky, and Tina says how do I get my dog to stop jumping? It is so embarrassing. Whenever I have guests over, my dog is crazy, hyper, jumps all over them and I'm very worried because if I have my grandmother over, she's 92 years old and I'm really afraid that she's going to get hurt Absolutely.
Speaker 2:You want to take that, I'll take that one. Jumping behavior is one of my favorite things to fix, and the reason why will is because it's easy.
Speaker 3:It's easy, all right, tina you just have to punish a dog, right.
Speaker 2:That's right. All you're going to do is you're just going to take that lead. No, but, but that's old school, right.
Speaker 3:How many times listen compulsion based trainers? They always say hey, if your dog's jumping, knee him in the chest.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. That is that, and that's what I was taught that for for the longest time. For the longest time, that's what I did, and when people asked me my dog is jumping, how do I fix this, I would say knee him in the chest. Just take that knee, and don't make it light either. You want to knee them in the chest, make it uncomfortable. That's not how we do it, though, folks.
Speaker 3:Explain how it's done using force-free methods. Positive reinforcement only.
Speaker 2:So the first thing that we're going to do is we need to teach our dog an incompatible behavior, without any distractions first. That's going to be the step one. Now, in a perfect world, the way that I like to do it is I teach my dog place. Okay, what place is? Is it is a designated spot normally an elevated cot, something like that where I'm teaching my dog to get on this spot and stay there, and I'm going to teach my dog to do that under distraction, with light distraction, heavy distraction and no distractions. Once I have a dog that is, you know, doing really good with place, there's something else I'm going to be doing concurrently at the same time, and that is what I like to call my 10-minute rule. Okay, the 10-minute rule is very, very simple when you come home, when your children come home, when your husband or wife comes home, when your neighbors come in the door, when your friends come over, whenever somebody walks through that front door, for 10 minutes straight, you ignore your dog. You pretend that they do not exist. You're not greeting them, you're not petting them, you're not giving them a treat. The only exception to this policy is I've been gone for five hours. I need to take my dog outside to go to the bathroom. That's the only exception, because I don't have a doggy door. But other than that, you completely ignore them for 10 minutes, nothing at all, and I do mean no interaction. If you do this every single time that your dog, that you come home and give it just two weeks, two weeks of every time somebody comes through that door, they get zero interaction You're going to start. What you're doing here is you're no longer reinforcing the idea in your dog's head that somebody coming through the door equals fun time, equals excitement, it equals love, it equals pets, it equals treats, it equals all these good things. Instead, the dog is going huh. When people come through the door, nothing really happens. So that's not really important to me anymore. There's really no reason for that.
Speaker 2:Now I've got my dog on place, I've taught my dog the 10-minute rule and now I'm ready to start introducing the door itself. The first thing I got to do is I got to figure out what is triggering my dog. Does my dog trigger when the person knocks? Does my dog trigger when they ring the doorbell? Is my dog triggering? They don't care when the knocking happens. They start triggering when the door opens. Maybe they don't even care about that. Maybe what they care about is the moment the person makes it in the door. But you got to figure that out Right.
Speaker 2:Once we know where my dog is starting to trigger, that's where I have to start desensitizing. So let's just say that I have a dog that triggers as soon as the knock occurs. That's where I'm going to start, put my dog on place and then I'm going to start knock, knock, knock, knock, knock. Very lightly, very light knocking, and I'm going to feed my dog simultaneously high value treats, feed, feed, feed, feed, feed, feed, feed. And I'm only going to do this a little bit because we aren't talking about a dog that is fearful. We're not talking about a dog that is aggressive. I'm just creating an association. So my dog hears the knock and goes Ooh, I'm going to get some food. That's what I want.
Speaker 3:And the dog is staying on place.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and they're staying on place, so it's getting reinforced for that additionally, exactly.
Speaker 2:Precisely Now. Once I've got this association of I'm on place, someone knocks on the door. I'm getting food in my mouth. Now I'm going to start teaching my dog the desired task. Okay, and that is, we're going to stay on my dog the desired task okay, and that is, we're going to stay on place as long as somebody's coming through the front door. So now I have somebody knock, maybe they jiggle the door a little bit, maybe they open the door a little bit. My dog stays on place. I mark and reward, okay.
Speaker 2:Then let's say, the dog gets off of place. What am I going to do? I'm not going to correct my dog, I'm just going to have that person immediately stop knocking, immediately close the door, immediately step back outside, whatever it is, and then I'm going to reset my dog. Mind you, they do not get a treat for getting back on place because they got off. They got off, they broke place. Now that my dog is back on place, I'm going to do it again. The person knocks oh, they get off a place. Well, nope, we're going to reset, do it again. Person knocks, they get off a place. Okay, you know what? This isn't working. My dog has failed three times now. I'm going to turn down my distraction. So instead of a I don't know if you can hear this like a loud knock.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do a very, very light knock Very very light and hopefully, now that I've turned down the distraction, my dog remains on place. I reward them and we use this very slow process until I get someone in the door. Now what people are thinking at home is well, jordan, I just want my dog to stop jumping. I don't want my dog to stay on place while this is occurring. I don't want to worry about teaching my dog place. That's fine. What we have done now is we've taught our dog that someone coming through the front door is not an exciting thing. Focusing on mom and dad staying on place is a fun and exciting thing. So now we can remove place from the equation.
Speaker 2:Okay, now I have somebody come through the front door, my dog already has an understanding of staying on place, being contained and not running over to jump. So now I've got my dog on leash, I let someone come through the door. And what am I going to do? I got to teach them a conflicting behavior, incompatible behavior. Sit, yes, give my dog a treat. As soon as somebody walks through the door. Person walks back out. I release my dog, let him run around. Person comes back through the door. Sit I reward my dog. I do it again Sit, I reward my dog Sit. I reward my dog Over and over and over and over On leash.
Speaker 2:The reason why the dog is on leash is so that they never get to actually physically put their paws and jump up on that person. We don't want to allow them to repeat the behavior. We don't want to allow them to continue to reinforce this fun behavior of jumping. Now I've had a point.
Speaker 2:Come this point, my dog, someone comes through the front door and there's probably a good chance that your dog is going to run up to you and sit and look for a treat. There's probably a good chance that's going to happen. If that occurs, you better pay your dog, reward them lots of love, fun explosion, give them all the treats you know, and you're just slowly turning up this distraction of somebody coming through the door, going away, coming through the door, going away. In addition to that 10-minute rule, and if you do those three things, which is 10-minute rule, teach your dog place with distractions and then teach an incompatible behavior at the front door, you will see results very, very, very quickly on the jumping behavior. I hope that answers your question, tina. Was there anything that you wanted to add? Will, or did I kind of knock it on the head there.
Speaker 3:You know you did good there. The only thing that you know some of my clients what I will have them do as well is use the door knock or the doorbell as a secondary cue for place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, perfect, and I can actually explain that, if you'd like Will. So it's super simple. It's really simple. What I do is I'll have my dog on leash. This is super important, folks. Why don't we train our dogs on leash? I don't know. Start training your dogs on leash. Just put a leash on them. It makes things so much easier. And then you can extinguish the leash, get rid of it later on down the road. Now my dog's running around on leash and then I have somebody knock, knock, knock or ring the doorbell and then I go place, place, place or sit, sit, sit, whatever the command is, and then I reward my dog and then I release him Knock, sit, whatever the command is and then I reward my dog and then I release him Knock, knock, knock, sit or place, reward, knock, knock, knock, sit or place and reward. And I do this over and over and over and over again. And then what's going to happen is it's going to go knock, knock, knock and my dog is going to boop sit Because they know what's coming next.
Speaker 3:They know what's coming next. They know what's coming next.
Speaker 2:We bridge the two together. Exactly, we turned the sit command or the knock into a bridge for the sit command, and what that means is a bridge is just connecting two separate behaviors.
Speaker 3:We're associating it, it's associative learning, it's classical conditioning, it's Pavlovian.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it is Pavlovian. That is exactly what it is, and I actually I got a question the other day. I had someone and maybe this is a topic for another week actually and I think it would be a good idea because it's already. We have about 10 minutes left, but I would like and those of y'all listening at home, I personally would like for us to potentially uh explore, um, the use of cbd in dogs. Is that something we could talk about? Will I think that'd be a fun topic for us yeah, I think we can do that.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, at another show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I definitely think so yeah, so I'll probably leave that question for that show then, yeah, I think we can do that at another show. Else that I get a lot is door bolting, and if you've got a dog that sees that front door open and they just start yelling freedom and they're gone, listen up. Super simple, really easy fix. What we need to do is the exact same thing where I've got my dog on leash, okay, and maybe I need to start 15, 20, 30, 40 feet away from the door. Right, I'm going to open up that door and this, this is great for a dog that is a jumper as well. Doing this training, I'm going to open up my the door and what I'm looking for here is I'm rewarding the desired behavior, and that is the behavior of focusing on me, not worrying about the door, sitting and staying whatever it is that I want my dog to do instead of going out of the door. When that occurs, I mark and reward. Close the door, open the door again. If my dog could care less about the door. They're focused on me, they're doing my tasks. I'm going to mark and reward, I move a little bit closer to the door, and I'm going to do this over and over and over again until I'm right there at the door. Mind you, my dog is on leash. I'm now going to open the door and I start teaching my dog that I will release them through the door, which, for a jumper, this is probably another thing that occurs. You got a guest coming up. They're getting things from their car.
Speaker 2:I open up my front door. My dog bolts out the front door to go greet the guest. Now I'm at the front door on leash. I'm going to open the door. I'm going to reward my dog as long as they don't go through the door. As soon as the door opens, I'm rewarding my dog.
Speaker 2:Now, the next thing I'm going to do is, if I have a stay command built into my dog, I'm then going to give them that command, that cue, and I'm going to step out the door. And then I'm going to turn around and I'm going to reward my dog again. Ask my dog to come through the door, whether that is with a release command, whether you build in your own command, your own cue that you want to use. Whatever I say break, I say break. My dog comes through the door. I reward her again and then, guess what? I'm going to turn around and I'm going to do the exact same thing to get inside. And then I'm going to turn around and I'm going to do the exact same thing to get outside.
Speaker 2:At this point there's no distractions outside. Outside is empty. I'm just teaching my dog you stay inside the door frame. It's not really teaching the dog to stay inside, it's actually teaching them don't go through door frames without my permission. That's what it's really teaching them.
Speaker 2:So now my dog is at the door, I reward. I release my dog through the door. I reward, I or I step through the door. I reward, I release my dog through the door, I reward. And I do this over and over and over and over.
Speaker 2:Now I'm going to get a helper to be down way down by the road, maybe even further, and I'm just going to have them stand there and I'm going to do the same thing again, over and over and over inside, outside, inside, outside, inside outside. Then maybe I'll have that person move a little bit closer and a little bit closer, and a little bit closer, until they're right on my door. Now, this whole time this person hasn't been moving. And then I'm going to do it again from that starting distance, and now I'm going to have the person start moving around, you know, maybe making noise, maybe trying to even call the dog hey Fluffy, hey Fluffy. You know, like whatever it is, get their favorite toy, get some food, you know, make them jump up and down, bring kids into the picture. Distractions work with positive. Reinforcement works with distraction If you take the time to do it.
Speaker 3:And that's key. Okay, that is key that you know there's a lot of people that are lazy and you've got to take the time, and here's the thing I want everybody to think about. Okay, and this is not to shame anybody how much do you love your dog?
Speaker 2:I love my dog a lot.
Speaker 3:And do you believe your dog's a sentient being?
Speaker 2:I absolutely believe my dog is a sentient being, so your dog feels pain.
Speaker 3:Your dog feels pleasure.
Speaker 2:Yes, 100%.
Speaker 3:Not just the physical sensation but the emotional aspects of pain and pleasure. Right, do you want to? I mean think about this, think about this. So do you want to? I mean think about this, think about this. Let's say that Jordan, the average pet parent who gets a dog, and they want to take their dog through training yeah, how long are they typically? And they don't have any major problems, they just have nuisance behavior issues and they want just regular obedience.
Speaker 3:You know, sit, calm down, go to your place. How long would you say that a person trains?
Speaker 2:I would say the average that a person is going to train is going to be no more than a couple of weeks. No more than a few weeks is what the average pet parent is doing with their dog. How many weeks. How many weeks, uh, I'd say maybe four all right so four weeks and how.
Speaker 3:During those four weeks, how often would you say they're training?
Speaker 2:um, are we talking about how often I would do it or how often I know?
Speaker 3:how often do you think a typical pet parent is training?
Speaker 2:probably once in a week twice a week, yeah, I would say so absolutely people are lazy will people are lazy, I was gonna say more, like about five times a week.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, but you know I could be wrong. Now we know that that's not enough training for things to be fully reliable. Yeah, absolutely all right. And so then what happens is they've got a dog that's not enough training for things to be fully reliable. Yeah, absolutely All right. And so then what happens is they've got a dog that's situationally trained. They've got a dog that's partially trained yeah, and even though training is never over, folks. But then they get out in the real world with their dog and they're struggling with their dog. Yeah, all right, because they haven't put in the time. But I want you to think about this. All right, let's split the difference. So let's say that for four weeks All right, they're doing it four times each week, ok, so they're doing basically what? 16 sessions? Yeah, all right, they're doing 16 sessions. And then after that we know that they're not reliable, and so then it's day in and day out.
Speaker 2:So how long would a typical training session be um?
Speaker 3:well for me. No for an average pet parent uh, 15 to 25 minutes okay so for 15 to 25 minutes.
Speaker 3:During that process the dogs experience with their pet parent. If they're not using force, free methods, if they're not using positive reinforcement, the dog's experiencing physical and emotional pain. Yeah, to a certain level. Now I'm not saying you're abusing your dog, that you, you know you should be arrested for abuse and neglect. Ok, yeah, but a correction is a correction is a correction, it's just a politically correct word, for you know, punishment, and punishment means that, hey, something uncomfortable is happening, all right. So if you love your dog, if you believe your dog is a sentient being, how comfortable are you, day in and day out, or at four times a week over a four-week period, of taking your dog and putting your dog through a situation where they experience emotional pain and physical pain? You know some intimidation, or at least they're uncomfortable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if you love your, if you believe they're a sentient being, then to me this is a animal welfare. This is an ethics issue, and that's what it became for me. Yeah, as I went through certification, as I had to do continuing education. Okay, because you know those exams weren't easy, especially the behavior consulting exam, um, and. And so you've really got to know your positive reinforcement really really well. Um, and it was through that process that I kind of had a lot of hurt feelings thinking about my past training and how I trained some of my dogs in the past. And I just can't do it. Yeah, I just can't do it Knowing what I know today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I always tell people, when I talk to folks you know that are talking to another trainer that is telling them hey, you need to use a shock collar, you need to use a prong collar, you've got to use corrections I always tell them I say you know, you don't know what you don't know. Right, you don't. I want to believe that trainers have good intentions yeah, right, they're working with animals. I want to believe they have good intentions, but you don't know what you don't know. So here's the thing Either they don't know what they don't know or they and this is part of it they don't have the skill level to be able to train a dog reliably off leash with distractions using positive reinforcement. Right, all right, those are the two big things. Right there, or they're lazy yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, right, and they want it done fast. They want it done fast and hey, for nuisance behaviors, punishment can work fast. It can work fast, but there's fallout. And we know, there's study after study after study that if you are, especially on a regular basis, using corrections, using punishment, using negative reinforcement, using aversives, that it takes a toll on a dog and we know that it increases anxiety, it increases aggression. Yeah, and do you want that for your dog?
Speaker 2:No, absolutely not, Absolutely not.
Speaker 3:Well, folks, we are out of time. We'll be back here next Saturday. Yes, we will here at 12 noon Eastern. Always get the times messed up because Arizona has a whole different.
Speaker 2:Hey, hey, we don't do daylight savings.
Speaker 3:We don't. You know. Our time stays the same. That's right, and I always got to remember okay, is the East coast, is the West coast or are they on daylight savings time? Are they not on daylight savings time but a 12 noon Eastern? Yes, saturdays. Also, you can check out my YouTube page. Go to YouTube and check out Phoenix Dog Training and check out my website at dogbehavioristcom. There's about 90 some articles there. Go to the menu, find articles, click on it. If you've got a problem, you're probably gonna find an article that's gonna help you with, probably going to find an article that's going to help you with positive solutions to resolve those issues. So there you have it All. Right, folks listen. Have a fantastic rest of your weekend. We'll see you next week. We're out of here.